Holley Terminator EFI

[72Rdrnner]

Just got a Holley Terminator EFI kit, with the fuel pump kit included.

Been wanting to do this for a few years and they had a $500 off special...so went for it.

Now that I've got it, I'm looking for someone who might have done it.

One of the "sticky" issues is the fuel system. I have a '72 Road Runner GTX 440 and it has a "return fuel line" but it's only 1/4 inch. Holley says you gotta have 3/8 minimum. They even supply fittings and all that to put a return line in the tank.

Yeah, right. Instructions show drilling a 9/16 hole, putting in a fitting, then "ahem" tightening the fitting down. Yeah, right, uh huh, sure. How exactly do you tighten down a nut on a fitting INSIDE a gas tank?

Called tech (non) support. Asked if I could use the 1/4 return since they say their is no more than 3 or 4 psi in the return line. They said "nothing less than 3/8 inch".

Sooooo....what now?

My best plan is to get a new supply/fuel gauge for the tank and try to put the "Holley return" in it, since there is no way in hell I'm about to drill a hole in my stock tank.

Anyhow...anyone got any information on this?

I will say I am impressed by the Terminator EFI system. I've already put a Keisler 4 spd OD transmission so have a throttle position feedback which can hook up to the EFI TPS. Plus the EFI throttle body bolts right up to my manifold and throttle cable.

But as I say there's that pesky fuel return line.....

[steved]

what about edelbrock's remote reservoir pump kit?

I have a FAST EFI (love it, btw), and I just use mine as a returnless system (it's configurable like that). if I couldn't have run returnless, i'd have done it this way.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/360 ... gQodx4AN4Q

shop around, I seem to recall it being below $500...

sjd

[72Rdrnner]

Thanks for the info.

Looked into the FAST system, but at the time they recommended an in tank pump system. Didn't see the remote reservoir pump kit. Price is pretty much the same especially since Holley had a $500 off for Christmas.

Since my first post I've come up with what I think will be an easy fix. I'm just going to get a new tank sending/fuel pickup unit and instead of using the 1/4 inch return, install the return line fitting to the sending unit itself. There's enough room to drill the return fitting hole in the round plate that is the end of the sending/fuel pickup unit. Only costs $70 and I can do all the work on it, then just swap it out with the one already in the tank and keep that for a spare.

Still have to drain and pull the tank but that's not really a big deal as I have a two post lift in my garage so working on the bottom of the car is as easy as the top!

The Terminator kit comes with 3/8 fuel line for both supply and return and all the fittings, clamps, hardware to install the complete fuel supply. Plus it's all bundled with and for the Holley product. I may just use the existing 3/8 inch steel supply line that's already on the car as opposed to running the supplied line, but will check with the Holley folks first. Still have to install the fuel pump and two filters anyhow.

Will post pix of the process & completed job. Won't be until April as I have two car shows and don't want to take a chance of running into a show stopper problem!

[dangina]

look at goldduster318 posts in this thread, probably the route i would have taken if i still had a stock tank...

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubb ... ost1934597

now that i read about this holly kit you bought, I'm very interested in what you think of it! Where do you mount the ecu? is it taller than a regular holly carb? wish they had this a couple years ago...

[72Rdrnner]

look at goldduster318 posts in this thread, probably the route i would have taken if i still had a stock tank...

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubb ... ost1934597

now that i read about this holly kit you bought, I'm very interested in what you think of it! Where do you mount the ecu? is it taller than a regular holly carb? wish they had this a couple years ago...

I haven't got into the installation yet but I plan on putting the ECU on the inside of the firewall just to the left of the brake pedal mount. I discovered, much to my delight, a 2 inch hole with a rubber plug in it through the firewall in that vicinity. So I don't have to drill any holes in the firewall! I've already got the transmission (Keisler) ECU mounted in that area.

I appears to be the same height as the Street Avenger on the car now. Haven't put the tape on it, but it looks real close.

I waited to get this because I wanted a "learn as you drive" and wanted the injectors on the base plate as opposed to on top of each throttle tube.

The real "kicker" came when Holley offered $500 off the price, which pretty much covered the cost of the Holley fuel system. I am impressed with how much "stuff" came with the kit. Doesn't look like I'll have to go out and get anything. All the fittings are from Earl's which I think Holley owns. Good, high quality stuff.

Should get the new fuel sender/feed unit today and will be putting the return line fitting there.

When I start the installation, I'll take pix and post them here along with the narrative. Probably start in late March. Our club show is the third weekend and I didn't want to start a project until that was over. I run the judging and with 160+ entries am "busier than a one armed paper hanger!"

[dangina]

I can't wait to see those pics! Is there alot of wiring that you have to do or is it just for the ecu? I like that the injectors are ontop, looks like it should be a easy bolt in solution. Was this $500 off a black friday sale? I may just pick one up next winter...

[72Rdrnner]

I can't wait to see those pics! Is there alot of wiring that you have to do or is it just for the ecu? I like that the injectors are ontop, looks like it should be a easy bolt in solution. Was this $500 off a black friday sale? I may just pick one up next winter...

The only "real" wiring is going to be the main cable that goes through the firewall. Here's the handy dandy "mystery hole" that came with the car. Have no idea what it might have been designed to use, but it sure is handy to have!

Firewall access hole

The rest is just match the plug up with the component. There is a coolant temperature sensor that is installed and the oxygen sensor (requires a bung In the exhaust...local muffler shop does them) and then both of those are hooked to the pre-made harness. Since I have a Keisler 4spd OD transmission installed there is a throttle position input to it already, so all I have to do is connect that with the TPI output on the carb harness.

Here's the "big picture" of the entire kit laid out.

The whole nine yards

Ran into an issue with trying to mount the return line to tank fitting in the existing pickup/sending unit. Just not enough room due to a bracket on the inside of the access plate. So I'm going to just cut off and drill out the existing 1/4 inch line and replace it with a piece of 3/8 line to fit the line that Holley provides. Not a real big deal, just kind of a pain in the ass.

The injectors aren't actually "on top" of the Terminator as they were on the Dominator system. They come in horizontally, two from the front, two from the back, and are just below the throttle plates themselves. They're circled in this image.

Injector position

As far as the $500 off, it might have been a "black Friday" thing as you had to place the order before Dec 31st. It really gave me the incentive to "go for it" as I'd been kicking the idea around for a few years.

You asked earlier about the height of the TBI unit. I measured and it's the same as the Holley Street Avenger carb that's currently on the car. 3" between carb base and air cleaner ring on top.

[72RoadRunnerGTX]

The “mystery hole” was used primarily for various optional equipment, factory and dealer installed. Installed many factory retrofit cruise control kits that incorporated a molded grommet on the harness sized for that hole back in the day. On the Dodge side, vacuum hoses or wiring for concealed headlamps used that hole.

[72Rdrnner]

The “mystery hole” was used primarily for various optional equipment, factory and dealer installed. Installed many factory retrofit cruise control kits that incorporated a molded grommet on the harness sized for that hole back in the day. On the Dodge side, vacuum hoses or wiring for concealed headlamps used that hole.

I figured it was something like that, but nothing in my FSM or parts manual referred to it. For the Keisler transmission I used the clutch rod hole to run the wiring harness to the ECU.

One thing for sure...I was not going to "cut" any of the firewall. Had that been the only option, the EFI would have gone back to Holley.

[72Rdrnner]

I can't wait to see those pics! Is there alot of wiring that you have to do or is it just for the ecu? I like that the injectors are ontop, looks like it should be a easy bolt in solution. Was this $500 off a black friday sale? I may just pick one up next winter...

Return line follow up. I investigated replacing the 1/4 inch tube with a 3/8 inch, but due to the sending unit electrical binding post being plastic, any welding/soldering would generate too much heat on the metal. Plus you can’t remove the binding post as it’s riveted in place, and I can’t seem to find one that might bolt in.

Image shows the only place big enough for the 9/16 inch hole (blue dot) for the fitting. Problem is the fitting has are two washer gaskets on both sides, and the one on this side would be on top of the support bracket, and the same with interference with the sending unit electrical connection.

Return Fuel Line Issues

So..... . I might just suck it up, and buy a new tank and weld a return line through the side of the tank. Easy and safe with a brand new tank! The one on the car is the original, and has a few dents in it anyhow. I can get one from Mopar Restoration Parts for about $170, which is a lot cheaper than I had thought they would be.

[moparite]

You may want to consider something like this(see pic). You can get a npt barb fitting to screw into the middle for the return line. You will have to make a hole in the tank though.

[72Rdrnner]

You may want to consider something like this(see pic). You can get a npt barb fitting to screw into the middle for the return line. You will have to make a hole in the tank though.

Thanks for the info. I had planned on using a metal fitting for sure, rather than the plastic one that comes with the kit.

I'm looking at several options now that I'm going to get a new tank. I'm finding several in tank pumps, along with a lot of videos on their installation. i.e cutting a hole in the tank for access.

Right now my first option is to simply drill a hole in the tank and put a 3/8 steel line through it, then weld it to the tank itself. A lot like the vent tubes are on the stock tank, only near the bottom. With a new tank, don't have to worry about gas fumes and all that.

I've read and heard all sorts of stuff about how the end of the return line should be below the fuel level, and about as many saying it makes no difference. I figure if simply put a hose on the end of the return line that will be on the bottom of the tank, that should solve the "keep it wet" idea. But still don't know if I really, really, REALLY have to do that.

I also see a lot of installations that use steel braided fuel line. Seems like a good idea from a safety standpoint, although not really convinced it's needed.

Fortunately the "install date" isn't gong to be until April at the earliest. Got car shows, and travel to races before that.

[dangina]

thanks for measuring the carb - I'm running a qft carb on a rpm intake that i had to cut the aircleaner base to make work for my airgrabber setup, so every inch counts!

[71_bronze_gtx]

My educated guess is that if you run 3/8 line back to the tank, and reduce it to 1/4 right at the tank fitting you will not have a problem.

I have called Holley a few times about the same problem I have had with my cuda and the big cam - can't keep it idling. Each time I get a different suggestion that will solve the issue, and none of them worked. Ultimately, the guy at Mopar Muscle told me I'm barking up the wrong tree - I need a new distributor curve - more initial advance but maxing out at 35 degrees. So I think most of the Holley people don't know diddley. They read from a script. At least they aren't in INDIA !

[72Rdrnner]

My educated guess is that if you run 3/8 line back to the tank, and reduce it to 1/4 right at the tank fitting you will not have a problem.

I have called Holley a few times about the same problem I have had with my cuda and the big cam - can't keep it idling. Each time I get a different suggestion that will solve the issue, and none of them worked. Ultimately, the guy at Mopar Muscle told me I'm barking up the wrong tree - I need a new distributor curve - more initial advance but maxing out at 35 degrees. So I think most of the Holley people don't know diddley. They read from a script. At least they aren't in INDIA !

Agree with "diddley"....would add "squat"!

I'm going to head off in a slightly different direction. Going to have a new stock tank for my Beeper modified with a "shelf" and install an in tank pump and the associated supply, return, and sending unit. Then I can just tap into the existing supply line (it's 3/8 inch already) and make a nice second return line. That way I'll have steel lines from the front to the back.

Going to add a relay in the electrical feed to the tank then run 12 gauge wire so I can be sure of a good electrical supply.

I'll just put the stock tank with the other stuff I took off the original car when I restored it. Pile is getting bigger...transmission, air conditioning compressor, exhaust and intake manifolds, original carb, and assorted other motor "stuff". Going to put 12" Wilwood disk brakes on all four corners (got stock disk on the front already) along with hydro boost.

Believe in the truism that "The one thing you NEVER see in a funeral procession, an armored car. You CANNOT take it with you!" Going to spend my kids inheritance!