Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

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71bird
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Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by 71bird » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:20 am

All this typing is getting to be a bit much, give me a call and lets talk on the phone, it's so much easer. I've been through this myself. I'm Anthony 423-312-6962 before 11 eastern. I'm up in Tn
71 Road Runner - J68

csilko
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Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:32 pm

Roadrunner_small (9).jpg
So in the process of stripping this car down in preparation for body work, I decided to dig a little more into the history of the car and try to get some more answers/ideas on several items.

I found a nickel sized piece of the broadcast sheet under the rear seat next to piles of old rat nests and squirrel acorns. The little bastards seemed to chew a lot of stuff in the car - especially plastics and the build sheet.

Here's a review of the timeline of what I know so far based on conversations with my late uncle, parents, etc:

1972 - car is produced (any way to find out the production date?)

1972 through Summer 1975 - unknown

Summer of 1975 - my uncle buys it from an individual seller after seeing a classified ad in Middletown, NY. My mother drives him to the person's house to pick the car up. In 2016 I drove my mother along the road she swears the sellers house was,in hopes of maybe finding the original seller, but we cannot find the house. It seems the location of the former house is now a large front yard to a small fire station. My mother recalls a large hill in the driveway, which made it difficult for the two of them - neither of whom knew how to drive stick shift - to make it up the driveway with the 3 year old Roadrunner.

Summer of 1977 - driver's side door is hit by a drunk driver lady and my uncle replaces it with a black RR door he found in a junkyard.

January 1978 - engine seizes from lack of oil and is towed back to my grandparents garage. My uncle removes the drive-train and other components and the car sits for decades there and in another garage in NYC until I took possession of it in Summer 2015.

Fender Tag
20170923_141659.jpg
I researched serial numbers and so on, and here is what I found and also some of my concerns:

The passenger side fender is blue, plus it never had a GTX emblem on it. There are also signs of under paint rust bubbling on the passenger door, indicating possible body work back in the day, perhaps due to the accident that cost the car the fender. While removing the chrome trim on all of the wheel-wells, I noticed they were all screwed in except for the replacement fender, which had the chrome trim riveted in instead. Not sure if this identifies what kind of car it came from or not.
20170923_140613.jpg
Blue marks on the fender, next to some old food that the little shits who ate my build sheet left behind.
20170923_140620.jpg


No GTX emblem on passenger side
20170923_140630.jpg

csilko
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My Cars: 72 Roadrunner/GTX, 440-6pk

Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:38 pm

It's difficult to see, thanks to newer scuffs and crap being spilled on it while sitting in his garage, but there are clear rust bubbles under the paint toward the front of the door.
20170923_140640.jpg
This is the only GTX emblem on the car, on the drivers side.
20170923_140658.jpg
This is the door tag for the replacement black door. After I get the body work done, what should I do with this part and this door tag? Should I get it removed before we paint it? Do they make replica door tags based on the actual VIN and fender tag?
20170923_140716.jpg
No GTX badge on the back either. Is there even room for it, or would the RR sticker have been more to the side? Could the badge simply have been knocked off, or was it never put on? Any way to tell?
20170923_140816.jpg
While on this picture, it seems to have come with longitudinal stripes, but in reading online, shouldn't there be a V something in the fender tag? I read it was a V6 for 71 and earlier cars. Is it possible the stripes were put on during the unknown years? I also can't find any information on the fender tag decoders for that initial V21 that is partially cut off from the screw hole.

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72RoadRunnerGTX
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Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by 72RoadRunnerGTX » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:43 pm

Scheduled production date (C03) December 3, 1971.
Replacement driver’s door is from another Dec ’71 Windsor built “U” code RR/GTX.
Safety label is reproduced, can be matched to actual vin. ECS
Image
Last edited by 72RoadRunnerGTX on Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

csilko
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My Cars: 72 Roadrunner/GTX, 440-6pk

Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:58 pm

Here is the dash VIN, which matches the fender tag VIN along with the sequence numbers on the engine and trans.
20170923_140744.jpg
I was unable to locate the VIN number on the engine cowl - even under the weatherstrip, or along the lip for the weather strip on the driver side of the trunk. Can anyone point me to exactly where these additional numbers might be? I want to make triple sure the numbers match.

The engine had the matching sequence number stamped along the oil tray runner.

The 4-speed also had the matching sequence number on the ID plate. It looks like the production codes were double stamped onto the plate and there are two separate codes there, both indicating different production dates, according to research on Moparts.com.
A833 4-Speed (2).jpg
It appears that there are spacer bearings in the piston rods. I read up on how undersized crankshafts were somewhat normal at the factory, but I also read that this would be denoted with a "+" or something on the upper engine ID pad. I don't see any such markings on the engine pad. Does this mean the crank was turned or replaced from original?
20170923_135539.jpg
20170923_135617.jpg
It's very difficult to see in the pic, but I am pretty sure the engine ID pad only reads as follows:
H 4 4 0
11 22 HP2

From what i have read, that translates to:
H = 1972
11 22 = November 22nd production date
HP2 = High Performance
440 Engine ID Block.jpg

csilko
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My Cars: 72 Roadrunner/GTX, 440-6pk

Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:01 am

Here's the crankshaft
20170923_140000.jpg
I'm not a forged/cast expert, but it appears to have casting marks. I thought I read the 1972 440s had forged cranks.
20170923_140355.jpg
I can't find any serial numbers of any markings whatsoever on this thing so I can't verify the production dates, etc. like I could on the other components. Is there anywhere special to look? This "2" is the only thing I see.
20170923_140012.jpg

csilko
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My Cars: 72 Roadrunner/GTX, 440-6pk

Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:05 am

The production casting codes on the air intake and exhaust seem to match for 1972 production. But then I looked up the cylinder head casting numbers:
20170923_135945.jpg
20170923_140148.jpg
From what I read on two different website, the casting number of 3769902 translates to this:

400/440 1974 Intake (2.08) Exhaust (1.74)
So, why would there be a 1974 set of heads on this? I can only assume this accident happened after 1974 and was bad enough to require the entire engine to be rebuilt with different heads and crank? Any other theories?

I know a lot of this is probably unknowable, but I am looking for theories, ideas, or possible explanations for what might have happend to this car between December of 1971 and the summer of 1975 when my uncle bought it. In summary:

1. Why was the passenger side fender blue, and what kind of car did it come from (with riveted wheelwell chrome trim)?
2. Why do the heads have 1974 casting marks?
3. Why do the rods have undersize journal bearings and what year is the crankshaft from?
4. Are the longitudinal stripes original to the car, and if so, is there a way to tell?
5. Why was there no GTX emblem on the trunk lid?
6. Where are the other VIN number locations besides on the inside dash, fender tag, and door sticker?

I guess I would just like to make sure this is really a mostly numbers matching car before I get into the heavy spending part of the job.

Thanks.

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72RoadRunnerGTX
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Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by 72RoadRunnerGTX » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:13 am

That's a forged crank, a bit on the rusty side.
Vin stamping locations, no trunk gutter stamping;
Image
Image
Last edited by 72RoadRunnerGTX on Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

csilko
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My Cars: 72 Roadrunner/GTX, 440-6pk

Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:23 am

72RoadRunnerGTX wrote:Scheduled production date (C03) December 3, 1971.
Replacement driver’s door is from another Dec ’71 Windsor built “U” code RR/GTX.
Safety label is reproduced, can be matched to actual vin. ECS
Image
Cool. Thanks. So, the stripes and RR sticker on my car are clearly not Roadrunner GTX U code original stripes? Is there a code on the fender tag for the longitudinal stripes? Do you know what the V25 means on my fender tag?

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72RoadRunnerGTX
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Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by 72RoadRunnerGTX » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:34 am

I see V21 (hood stripes), not seeing V25 (deck lid Stripes). Reads like they need to be ordered together. If you look at the details of the original deck lid stripe I posted, you can see some differences.
Image
Image

csilko
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Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:39 am

OK, I found the stamp on the cowl, it was just hard to see. It matches the sequence number.
Engine Compartment Serial Numbers (2).jpg
Engine Compartment Serial Numbers (1).jpg
I'm seeing two different numbers on the radiator support, neither of them are in the vicinity of the yellow sticker as you pointed out in your picture.

It may be difficult to see in the pic, but it looks pretty smooth on the area under the yellow pic
Engine Compartment Serial Numbers (5).jpg
As the radiator support curves down toward the driver's side headlight, I see a stamp marking. It's upside down, facing the firewall. It appears to have 3 numbers, then a letter, then 3 more numbers. There is something similar on the passenger side, but in a slightly different location and facing forward instead of toward the firewall.
Engine Compartment Serial Numbers (6).jpg
Radiator stamp.jpg

csilko
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Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:41 am

Here is the other stamp, it's approximately in betwen the two little electrical wire support strap pieces, upside down, facing forward.
Engine Compartment Serial Numbers (3).jpg
Here's a close up of the number, different from the other side and nothing near the sequence number of the car.
Engine Compartment Serial Numbers (4).jpg

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72RoadRunnerGTX
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Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by 72RoadRunnerGTX » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:05 am

I would feel around under the anti-freeze sticker, have seen some core support stampings in the top of the core support. The smaller numbers are just part identifiers or part numbers for the core support pieces.
Attachments
Engine%20Compartment%20Serial%20Numbers%20(5).jpg
Image

csilko
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Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:03 pm

Well, I'll be damn. You're good. Right under the anti-freeze sticker, more toward the centerline of the car, was the sequence number stamped in, and it matches. So I guess the radiator support is original to the car, but obviously not the passenger fender and apparently not the heads.

csilko
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:25 pm
My Cars: 72 Roadrunner/GTX, 440-6pk

Re: Inherited 1972 Roadrunner/GTX 440

Post by csilko » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:11 pm

72RoadRunnerGTX wrote:I see V21 (hood stripes), not seeing V25 (deck lid Stripes). Reads like they need to be ordered together. If you look at the details of the original deck lid stripe I posted, you can see some differences.
Image
So, somewhere along the line a few mistakes were made with regards to the stripes. As far as I can see, there are basically two theories:

1. The dealership only checked V21 as opposed to both V21/V25 when it was ordered, and the factory allowed it to be ordered with just V21, even though the spec sheet you had says both should be checked. It was built correctly, and then either the dealership or the first owner said "this thing looks stupid with longitudinal stripes only on the hood, so lets get them added to the trunk." At which time they just ordered the regular RR decal as opposed to the RR/GTX decal combo and nobody ever noticed the difference.

2. It was ordered as V21 and V25 and the factory screwed up the fender tag and also screwed up the RR/GTX decal on the trunk lid.

Theory one seems more likely, but I'm interested in any other thoughts. Thanks.

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